Here's an excerpt from 5 lessons:
Let us first study the correct motion of the right arm and hand in the impact area. It always seemed to me that, in its general character, this motion is quite similar to the one an infielder makes when he throws half underhand, half sidearm to first after scooping up a ground ball. as he swings his arm forward, his right elbow is very close to his right hip. The elbow "leads" the arm- it is the part of the arm nearest to the target as he begins to make the throw. The forearm and hand catch up with the elbow, and the player's arm is extended relatively straight when he releases the ball. As he follows through, the wrist and hand gradually turn over, and his palm faces the ground at the finish of his follow-through.
On a full shot you want to hit the ball as hard as you can with your right hand. But that is only half the story. HIT THE BALL AS HARD AS YOU CAN WITH BOTH HANDS. The left is a power hand, too. If you hit hard with only the right and let the left go to sleep, you will not only lose much valuable power, you will also run into all the errors that result when the right hand overpowers the left. YOU MUST HIT AS HARD WITH THE LEFT AS WITH THE RIGHT.
Here's Peter Senior:
He drag loads it, almost to the point where the club is riding on his back. He then gets to waist high or so and hits it with everything but the kitchen sink. Of course some would categorize this as some sort of swinging. There is no doubt in my mind that he is utilizing right arm muscular thrust through and beyond the impact interval.
Here's Peter Lonard
I've removed Hogan, it' not clear enough to prove my point.
Jeff's analysis of Peter Senior:
Image 1 shows him approaching the delivery position where his hands have reached waist level. Note that his right elbow is still bent (which means that PA#1 is still loaded), that his clubshaft is still >90 degrees relative to the left arm (PA#2 is still loaded) and his GFLW is roughly parallel to the inclined plane (which means that PA#3 is still loaded). Note that he has already started to release PA#4.
Image 2 shows him at impact - he has released PA#2 and PA#3 and the right arm has significantly straightened. If his right arm straightens with enough force to keep up with the left hand, but doesn't apply a push-force via PP#3 that drive-loads the shaft during the late downswing and the club primarily releases via a CF-release action, then he is still swinging in his late downswing. If his right arm straightens very actively so that it drive-loads the shaft during the late downswing and over-rides any CF-release action, then he is hitting in his late downswing - and he could be said to be actively releasing PA#1. A hitter (who actively releases PA#1) will also be releasing PA#3 via push-force applied to PP#1 during the right arm straightening action. A swinger can also use push-force from the right arm (applied at PP#1) during the right arm straightening action to synergistically help in the smooth release of PA#3, but that doesn't represent an active release of PA#1. An active release of PA#1 is deemed to only be present if the right arm straightening action is active enough that it induces the release of PA#2 and over-rides any CF-release action that is operant AND if the club is drive-loaded into impact, and through impact.
If Peter Senior is drive-loading the shaft into impact (as you believe) then he is hitting in his late downswing. The question then becomes - is he a pure hitter or a swing-hitter? Here is my explanation of how to resolve that dilemma - by studying what happens in the early-mid downswing BEFORE the hands get down to waist level. Note that his right elbow is bent at his end-backswing position with the right forearm roughly parallel to the spine and his hands are roughly opposite his right shoulder socket area. That's an optimal position to start a TGM hitting action, but it doesn't mean that he is hitting from the top-of-his-backswing. If he releases PA#4 in his early downswing (between his end-backswing position and his delivery position) by actively thrusting his right shoulder downplane so that its pivot force pushes the two-hand unit forward via a loaded RFFW, then he is activating the release of PA#4 via a right-sided push force applied to PP#1, and I would label that a pure hitting action. If he releases PA#4 in his early-mid downswing via his pivot action, then he is swinging in his early downswing and I would then label his overall swing action as swing-hitting - because he is swinging in his early-mid downswing and hitting in his late downswing.
Note that his right elbow is bent at his end-backswing position with the right forearm roughly parallel to the spine and his hands are roughly opposite his right shoulder socket area. That's an optimal position to start a TGM hitting action, but it doesn't mean that he is hitting from the top-of-his-backswing.
I disagree with the above statement, in order to drag load like he does he needs the quarter turn of pp#3 which is part and parcel of a swinging procedure. He then proceeds to start the club down as if it were," an arrow drawn from a quiver feather end first". He is still maintaining a passive hand attitude at this point and at about waist high he activates the hands and and begins accelerating across the shaft. For those not familiar with what drag loading (arrow out of a quiver) looks like here's a video:
Here are my comments from below:
Jeff,
He is drive loading into impact, the swivel is irrelevant (the ball is gone). At impact if you follow the remaining frames, you will see that his pivot is so violent that it sweeps him off his feet and into a "Parametric Acceleration" attitude. In short, this hitting motion is optimal. There is no Steering or Powder Puffing here. You may find it blasphemous because Homer didn't define or condone it but in my opinion this is what a real "Hitter" should strive for. If you're more comfortable calling it "Swing Hitting". I can live with that. But you have yet to produce a competent Golfer who uses Pure hitting as defined by TGM. I think I did it for you in today's post, because Stadler closely approximates Tomasello's description. if I pull up video of Palmer and Lon Hinkle you can rest assured that they were not doing what Tomasello described above. He's basically advocating mega chip shots and punches with a left to right ball curvature. the last player I saw play like that was Mark McCumber and he was accused of doing many other things to survive at that level.
Ralph
Hit em Straight


Ralph,
ReplyDeleteYou are free to use the PA release sequence of 4:1:2::3, which is a swing-hitting technique.
However, I am not surprised that Homer Kelley didn't describe that swing option in his yellow book - because of the enormous difficulty of integrating an active right arm straightening action (active release of PA#1) with a CF-release of the club. HK felt that any drive-loading pressure on the shaft in the late downswing could interfere with the smooth CF-release of the club, and actually decrease the speed of club release in the late downswing. There is also the potential risk that any application of right-sided push pressure against PP#1 (during an active release of PA#1) could speed up the left hand in the late downswing and make the release of PA#4 more jerky and less smooth, or possibly drive the left hand into impact too fast - before the completion of the release of PA#3 - and that would lead to pushed shots.
Jeff.
Ralph,
ReplyDeleteI agree to an extent that most people use a combined application. Hitters definitely use right arm contribution, throwers definition use right arm contribution. And if you look at a two handed backhand in tennis there is definitely contribution from both hands. That is the purpose of using both hands. Now, one can argue to what degree there is contribution and can interpret that data to mean whatever level of significance they choose to perceive.
As I often argue, everything happens in a matter of degrees. With that in mind, I believe you can be a pure Swinger, Pure Hitter, Pure Thrower, however you can also be a Swing-Hitter, Swing-Thrower, Throw-Swinger and many other combinations. I believe you can actually Swing-Hit-Swing, Swing-Throw-Swing among other combinations. Whether it can be intellectually argued that one is more complicated than another, more efficient, more effortless, more easily repeatable is one thing. The test is always in the application. And it is clear that many more golfers (and by that I mean professionals as well as amateurs) employ what can be described as hybrid-strokes as compared to pure Hitting, pure Swinging and pure Throwing.
Once again this seems to be an argument between theory and application.
EA Tischler
EA,
ReplyDeleteYou wrote-: "And if you look at a two handed backhand in tennis there is definitely contribution from both hands. That is the purpose of using both hands."
I don't know what you mean by the term "contribution" but I was speaking to a tennis instructor who was teaching at the highest level and he stated that the rear hand is used for guidance, and not power, in a two-handed backhanded tennis stroke. Even if you disagree, applying power with the rear hand is not a problem because there is no club release phenomenon in a backhanded tennis stroke. However, I think that applying push-pressure with the right hand (via PP#1 or PP#3) in the late downswing in a swinger can lead to many complications - because the club is releasing via a CF-release action during that time period.
Jeff.
Hi Jeff,
ReplyDeleteCan you cite any PGA tour players that use either a Pure Hitting (which I don't think exists) or Pure Swinging protocol? Not to be argumentative but most modern players are using a Hybird technique.
Ralph
Ralph,
ReplyDeleteCan you prove that most modern players are using a hybrid technique? How? I am very interested in analyzing the "evidence" that you believe supports your opinion.
Why don't you believe that "pure" hitting exists?
Jeff.
Ed thanks for the lesson this weekend. It was awesome. I left with the feeling that I'm closer to "owning" my swing according to my bio-mechanical make up. I'm a swing thrower. Very similar move to what Jacobs is describing in his low point and impact youtube videos. When I worked with McHatton he was trying to get me to accelerate the club longitudinally by using a swinger's motion, but Ed showed me I could do the same thing using a throwing motion. It's a great feeling. By adding I'm assume you are talking about using the hands vs. the pivot to throw the club out. You accomplish throw out with either motion (swinging or throwing). My body is suited for throwing more than swinging and it was very freeing to know that I could move the club longitudinally using a throwing motion.
ReplyDeleteWhen I met with Ed he spent time measuring me to determine my bio-mechanical make up, and he also took the time to talk theory with me, and it really helped clarify a lot of things that I had a little confused about.
Here's some of the results from my lesson using Ed's Classifications.
Power of 3 Golf Biomechanics related to Accuracy:
Swing Path – Side-On
Swing Track – Mid-Track
Wrist Lever Action – Horizontal
Lever Delivery Action – Cornering
Power of 3 Golf Biomechanics related to Power:
Swing Anchor – Front Hip
Torque System – Needs to measure - Lower Body, Full Body, & Upper Body
Clearing Action – Needs to measure -Front Hip, Tailbone, & Rear Hip
Axis of Symmetry – Spine Line (more than center)
Power of 3 Golf Biomechanics related to Good Feel:
Swing Linkage – Needs to measure - Front, Center, Rear???
Swing Slotting – Cross-Slotting
Postural Release – Post-Up
Arc Management – Deep-Deep
@Ralph - This is why I think EA's system is genius because it accounts for not only TGM's Swinger and Hitter model, but also adds a third option that of a Thrower. It's more complete than TGM.
ReplyDeleteRalph, with your baseball background you should discuss the Thrower's technique with EA.
i forgot to add that the hybrid move you are describing is a Throwing Technique.
ReplyDeleteJeff,
ReplyDeleteDefine "Pure Hitting" and show me a Tour Player that fits that model.
Ralph
Now watch the video I'm going to add to the post above.
ReplyDeleteRalph,
ReplyDeletePeter Senior also demonstrates that there are alternative postural release patterns being employed, beyond rotating in posture until late in the through stroke.
I've now added Peter Lonard, they are both "Hitting" yet they demonstrate elements of swinging.
ReplyDeleteRalph
Ralph,
ReplyDeleteYou state that a hitting action (active release of PA#1) starts at waist-high. If I surmise correctly, then do you agree that it's only purpose is to affect the release of PA#2 and PA#3. What's the advantage of adding an active PA#1 release action to a swinger's action - if he is already activating PA#2 and PA#3 adequately.
Here is SMK hitting 250 yard drives with a lead-arm only swing.
DTL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JW6A_J4KEA&NR=1
Face-on
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgF_9IfROAU
Do you think that he is releasing PA#2/PA#3 inadequately? How would he synergistically increase his swing power by adding a right arm straightening action when his hands reach waist-high?
Jeff.
Ralph,
ReplyDeletePure hitting can be triple-barrel or four-barrel (which involves the active release of PA#4 before one starts the "pure" hitting action - PA#1 release => passive release of PA#2/PA#3 via the right arm's straightening action).
I think that Ken Perry and Lee Trevino are probably four-barrel hitters.
Here is Ted Fort demonstrating a four-barrel hitting action.
http://www.youtube.com/user/lynnblakegolf#p/u/78/Drr_JiGsS7Y
Jeff.
Hi Jeff,
ReplyDeletePure hitting can be triple-barrel or four-barrel (which involves the active release of PA#4 before one starts the "pure" hitting action - PA#1 release => passive release of PA#2/PA#3 via the right arm's straightening action).
Why can't it be called 4 barrel swinging?
Ralph
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteLol @ the one armed golfer again. SMK hits it farther with both hands on the club, just like everybody does. Why do you think that is, Jeff? I thought the discussion had moved past this point months ago, but apparently not.
ReplyDeleteP.S. I like watching Peter Senior's swing, especially at regular speed, you can tell he's really knocking the hell out of it thru impact.
ReplyDeleteRalph,
ReplyDeleteIt cannot be called four-barrel swinging because a swinger should not actively release PA#1. If a golfer actively releases PA#1 during the CF-release of PA#2, then the right arm's straightening action will be actively causing the release of the club and not only the CF-release action. Homer Kelley stated that one could not use two forces to release the club at the same time because it would be impossible to coordinate these two club-releasing forces. A TGM swinger releases PA#2 via a CF-release action (according to the principle of the double pendulum swing action) while a TGM hitter releases the club via a right arm straightening action (active release of PA#1). In a TGM swinger, the right arm straightens passively in synchrony with the releasing club, but it doesn't attempt to power the club release phenomenon.
Jeff.
Natep,
ReplyDeleteIf you think that adding the rear (right) arm would add power to a lead arm-only swinger's total amount of swing power, then please attempt to provide an explanation as to when the right arm is active and please explain how it's activity increases clubhead speed.
Jeff.
Jeff.
Ralph,
ReplyDeleteWhen you state that Peter Senior is hitting, what do you see in his swing action that you label "hitting"? Does that action increase the speed of release of PA#4 or PA#2 or PA#3? If not, what does it accomplish?
Jeff.
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteIf you cant accept that every golfer in the world, whether "swinger" or "hitter", can hit it farther with two arms than one, then I doubt that there's anything I could produce at this point that would change your mind.
Jeff,
ReplyDeletePeter Senior is hitting because he is applying muscular thrust with his right hand and arm through the release interval look at the first video and you tell me.
Ralph
Ralph,
ReplyDeleteI agree that Peter Senior is actively contracting his right triceps muscle during his right elbow straightening action that happens during his late downswing. However, what makes that a hitting action? Does it affect the speed of release of PA#2 or PA#3? Do you believe that he is drive-loading the shaft through impact? If yes- then that means that he is not using a CF-release action to power his release of PA#2, which is intrinsic to HK's TGM swinging action.
Jeff.
Jeff.
Natep wrote-: "If you cant accept that every golfer in the world, whether "swinger" or "hitter", can hit it farther with two arms than one, then I doubt that there's anything I could produce at this point that would change your mind."
ReplyDeleteThat's a worthless comment!
I never stated that a two-armed golfer cannot hit the ball further than a lead-arm only golfer. I asked for an explanation to explain how the right arm can help increase clubhead speed. I am not at all surprised that Natep didn't offer an explanation.
I think that SMK's lead-arm only swing is central to understanding how HK's TGM swinging action works in terms of the sequential release of PA#4 => PA#2 and PA#3. For those golfers who believe that they can benefit by adding a rear arm to a TGM swinging action, then they should be thinking about the mechanics of how the addition of a rear arm can fruitfully alter the TGM triple-barrel mechanics/physics that form the foundation of HK's TGM swinging action.
Jeff.
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteI didnt offer an explanation because you have previously stated that you will not be convinced of anything unless it involves an electromyograph on all of the relevant muscles, plus pressure sensors throughout the grip of the club meausuring torques throughout the downswing. So whats the point? Sooner or later the results of the tests you wish to see will become known. And then maybe you will be convinced of what everyone else already knows.
Jeff
ReplyDeleteI believe he is driveloading with the right, pulling with the Left and at the same time applying pivot thrust through the release/impact intervals.
So yes in my opinion he is efficiently hitting.
Ralph
Natep wrote-: "then maybe you will be convinced of what everyone else already knows."
ReplyDeleteThat's my question - what does everyone else already know in terms of what the right arm is actually doing in terms of providing swing power in a swinger's downswing action? If anybody has the answer, I would like to learn the answer.
Jeff.
Oh, sorry then I misunderstood your question. I'm not precisely certain of all the ways the right arm affects the physics of the downswing/release. I have only my opinions/theories. But I have no doubt that using a pure TGM swinging procedure with a truly limp right arm would never allow you to reach your full potential as a golfer, and I dont believe any professional golfers are using pure TGM swinging. It's my opinion that an active right arm can facilitate a faster release than a passive CF induced release.
ReplyDeleteNatep,
ReplyDeleteIf an active right arm induces the club's release (release of PA#2), then do you believe that it over-rides any CF-release phenomenon that is present, and that the golfer is then drive-loading the shaft into impact?
Jeff.
Yes, I believe the right arm aids in throwing the clubhead and leveraging the shaft at the late stages of the downswing, a throw that over-rides, or boosts, the pure CF release that would happen with just a left arm pulling motion and a passive right arm. I do not believe the right arm is drive loading the shaft all the way into impact in what would commonly be referred to as a "swinging" procedure.
ReplyDeleteNatep,
ReplyDeleteYou wrote-: "I do not believe the right arm is drive loading the shaft all the way into impact in what would commonly be referred to as a "swinging" procedure."
Surely you meant "hitting" procedure because a hitter drive-loads the shaft all the way into impact?
If you believe that the right arm can boost a CF-release action via a right arm throw action (right arm straightening action) in the late downswing, how do you envisage a golfer accomplishing that goal so that the club releases smoothly and also with perfect timing (such that the clubhead doesn't get to impact faster than the hands as a result of the throw action)? Also, how is a golfer supposed to modulate that active right arm throw action in the late downswing so that he doesn't actually drive-load the shaft into impact (and thereby become a hitter)?
Jeff.
Ralph,
ReplyDeleteYou wrote-: "I believe he is driveloading with the right, pulling with the Left and at the same time applying pivot thrust through the release/impact intervals."
That's too vague an explanation for me.
I will explain what could be happening in the late downswing in Peter Senior's swing action using a TGM-influenced explanation.
Here are capture images from his swing video.
http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/PeterSeniorRelease.jpg
Image 1 shows him approaching the delivery position where his hands have reached waist level. Note that his right elbow is still bent (which means that PA#1 is still loaded), that his clubshaft is still >90 degrees relative to the left arm (PA#2 is still loaded) and his GFLW is roughly parallel to the inclined plane (which means that PA#3 is still loaded). Note that he has already started to release PA#4.
Image 2 shows him at impact - he has released PA#2 and PA#3 and the right arm has significantly straightened. If his right arm straightens with enough force to keep up with the left hand, but doesn't apply a push-force via PP#3 that drive-loads the shaft during the late downswing and the club primarily releases via a CF-release action, then he is still swinging in his late downswing. If his right arm straightens very actively so that it drive-loads the shaft during the late downswing and over-rides any CF-release action, then he is hitting in his late downswing - and he could be said to be actively releasing PA#1. A hitter (who actively releases PA#1) will also be releasing PA#3 via push-force applied to PP#1 during the right arm straightening action. A swinger can also use push-force from the right arm (applied at PP#1) during the right arm straightening action to synergistically help in the smooth release of PA#3, but that doesn't represent an active release of PA#1. An active release of PA#1 is deemed to only be present if the right arm straightening action is active enough that it induces the release of PA#2 and over-rides any CF-release action that is operant AND if the club is drive-loaded into impact, and through impact.
If Peter Senior is drive-loading the shaft into impact (as you believe) then he is hitting in his late downswing. The question then becomes - is he a pure hitter or a swing-hitter? Here is my explanation of how to resolve that dilemma - by studying what happens in the early-mid downswing BEFORE the hands get down to waist level. Note that his right elbow is bent at his end-backswing position with the right forearm roughly parallel to the spine and his hands are roughly opposite his right shoulder socket area. That's an optimal position to start a TGM hitting action, but it doesn't mean that he is hitting from the top-of-his-backswing. If he releases PA#4 in his early downswing (between his end-backswing position and his delivery position) by actively thrusting his right shoulder downplane so that its pivot force pushes the two-hand unit forward via a loaded RFFW, then he is activating the release of PA#4 via a right-sided push force applied to PP#1, and I would label that a pure hitting action. If he releases PA#4 in his early-mid downswing via his pivot action, then he is swinging in his early downswing and I would then label his overall swing action as swing-hitting - because he is swinging in his early-mid downswing and hitting in his late downswing.
Jeff.
I'm not saying it's simple. It's an athletic skill and an art, no doubt. But IMO if you can throw a fastball with reasonable accuracy this will be a breeze. They're pretty similar IMO. If an individual has ever been involved in athletics then they will be accustomed to powerful high speed movements and have a feel for the timing elements involved IMO. I'm not saying everyone can do it, but it's what tour players do IMO.
ReplyDeleteJeff,
ReplyDeleteWhat does Peter Senior's right arm look like post impact? Is it straight, or bent? I know John Erickson is a big fan of Senior's motion, and I believe that Erickson's thoughts on HK not cataloging and not understanding the possibility of a right arm that stays bent by resisting straightening CF forces are brilliant. IMO its just as valid an option as a CF straightening or a drive load straightening.
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteHe is drive loading into impact the swivel is irrelevant (the ball is gone). At impact if you follow the remaining frames, you will see that hi pivot is so violent that it sweeps him off his feet and into a "Parametric Acceleration" attitude. In short, this hitting motion is optimal. You may find it blasphemous because Homer didn't define or condone it but in my opinion this is what a real "Hitter" should strive for. If you're more comfortable calling it "Swing Hitting". I can live with that. But you have yet to produce a competent Golfer who uses Pure hitting as defined by TGM. I think I did it for you in today's post, because Stadler closely approximates Tomasello's description. if I pull up video of Palmer and Lon Hinkle you can rest assured that they were not doing what Tomasello described above. He's basically advocating mega chip shots and punches with a left to right ball curvature. the last player I saw play like that was Mark McCumber and he was accused of doing many other things to survive at that level.
Ralph
The more I watch that swing the more it appears to be exactly what Erickson describes as "ABS Hitting": frozen right arm, huge pivot thrust thru impact, firing the hands hard thru the ball, ripping the shaft up the plane in the followthrough. All I know about JE's technique I learned from reading stuff on the free side of his site, but IMO it seems far more effective than TGM hitting, and very Hoganish thru the ball.
ReplyDeleteRalph,
ReplyDeleteI am not disputing the fact that there are alternative hitting techniques other than HK's TGM hitting technique - such as JE's ABS swing-hitting technique, and I could readily agree that Peter Senior is using the ABS technique. In a pure TGM hitting technique, one should be keeping the clubface more closed to the clubhead arc during the takeaway, and one should not use a takeaway swivel action that rotates the back of the GFLW onto the surface of the plane - as occurs in PS's swing.
A major difference between the TGM hitting technique and the ABS swing-hitting technique is that TGM hitting is a cross-line procedure where one performs a straight line thrust directed towards an aiming point near the ball (during the release of PA#1). In the ABS swing, the golfer has to pivot-rotate much more actively through impact while drive-loading the shaft beyond impact in a more rotary manner. I personally think that the ABS technique (as best as I can understand the technique) is an excellent way to perform a golf swing - IF ONE HAS THE FLEXIBILITY AND ATHLETICISM TO PIVOT WELL THROUGH IMPACT, AND WELL BEYOND IMPACT.
I gave you a perfect example of a TGM hitting technique - Ted Fort's superb four-barrel TGM hitting video.
I could envisage classifying Craig Perry and Craig Stadler as being TGM hitters, and I doubt that they could ever master the physically-demanding ABS swing-hitting technique.
Jeff.
Correction - It is only Craig Stadler that I envisage as being a TGM hitter, and I cannot easily imagine him perfecting the ABS swing-hitting technique. Craig Parry seems to be performing an ABS-like swing-hitting technique.
ReplyDeleteJeff.
Jeff, can you really tell from 2d if a golfer is a hitter or swinger or swing hitter or any other variation? Didn't I read somewhere that you stated an experiment using sensors on the golfers body and on/in the club was needed to prove or disprove all of this once and for all?
ReplyDeleteI find it hard to believe that anyone including Homer could possibly know what is happening without some kind of experiment to verify it.
All this seems like , "seems like".
On a different note: Hello to Ralph and thanks for having this great place to read and view some excellent golf content.
Footwedge,
ReplyDeleteOne cannot tell from a video (whether it's 2-D or 3-D) whether a golfer is a hitter or a swinger. One can only surmise that he is LIKELY ("seems like") using a TGM hitting or a TGM swinging technique by visually observing a multitude of biomechanical swing actions that occur during the downswing/followthrough eg. one video visual example - whether he is using a roll-release action (which is much more common in swingers, who are drag-loaders) or a drive-hold release action through impact (which is much more common in hitters, who are drive-loaders).
Jeff.
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteI missed your comments on the two-handed backhand and the role of the rear hand being used only for guidance. That is his opinion and I believe is true for golfers strong enough to play a one-handed backhand and wants added control. However the two-handed backhand was developed because those that first used it lack the strength to have a powerful one-handed backhand, resulting in weak backhanded shots. Meaning they had insufficient power. So, there is a significant portion of the tennis community that used the two-handed technique for added power.
I agree that adding rear hand push at the bottom of the release into a pure swinging action can make the technique more complex. However that doesn't necessarily mean it will be problematic. It will in some circumstances for some golfers, however I can conceptually understand why it would work for certain golfers as well.
However, I can also see a golfer creating a rotational pull with the body up to the point of delivery and then have the rear side pushing action deliver the stroke. That is a key aspect of most throwing actions. It would also be valid for some pivot driven hitting techniques.
EA
EA,
ReplyDeleteIf you think that a backhanded tennis player can chose to use the rear hand to apply more power through impact, then I presume that you would agree that it adds power by increasing racquet speed at impact via the right arm pushing the left hand/club unit forward faster?
Do you believe that is how a two-handed golfer applies increased swing power from the right upper limb - that he uses it to increase the speed of release of PA#4 in the late downswing via push-force applied at PP#1? If yes - then consider that he he cannot easily avoid simultaneously applying push-power to the shaft via PP#3 while the club is undergoing a CF-release action. That means that the clubshaft is being subjected to two club-releasing forces at the same time (a CF-releasing force and a drive-loading force). I find that situation problematic - even if you do not! I also think that any increase in left hand speed in the late downswing (due to push-pressure applied by the right arm/hand at PP#1) is going to affect the club-release phenomenon [that occurs according to the physics underlying the double pendulum swing model, which is dependent on a smooth (relatively constant speed)motion of the central arm.
You also wrote-: "However, I can also see a golfer creating a rotational pull with the body up to the point of delivery and then have the rear side pushing action deliver the stroke. That is a key aspect of most throwing actions. It would also be valid for some pivot driven hitting techniques."
That's the basis for a four-barrel TGM hitting action - where PA#4 is released via a pivot-action BEFORE the right arm hitting action (release of PA#1) begins. As I have stated, I regard this TGM hitting action as being a swing-hitting approach (rather than a pure hitting approach), and I think that synchronising the swinging action with a hitting action can be problematic, although obviously achievable.
Jeff.
Jeff,
ReplyDeleteI believe the two-handed action in both tennis and golf adds additional structure into the lever assembly. There are a variety of different aspects that add structure, one of them including dynamic pressure/tension. Most of them involve the triangular structure of the lever assembly which is not structurally intact in one armed strokes. I also believe energy flows through both arms to varying degrees within varying techniques. It is also clear to me that the scientific community does not have a complete grasp on how energy is produced, multiplied, gathered and delivered, even though they have made huge improvements in the understanding of the past 20 years. Quantum physics is starting to shed light on many things that have not been completely understood to this point. I do not have all the math and science detailed for all possibilities at this point. And when I do not have all the scientific data I choose not to presume anything. Instead I look at what is actually happening and look for ways for science to explain it in greater detail.
There are many things that you have expressed as being too complex or problematic that I can perform with regularity. So, it would seem that what is ultimately a problem as far as consistency, efficiency and effectiveness all lay in the individual’s ability to manage the process. For example, in my experience I have found that using the “AWE-ING” training to gain more heightened awareness and understanding of the proper geometric alignments for each procedure has helped me understand what makes a stroke efficient or inefficient. What I have learned from it is that if the geometric alignments are correct at delivery and then from that point directed through the proper full extension alignments for the given procedure, than many of the things you have described as problematic are easily managed. Now, you may say that is all too vague. However I have using broad descriptions on purpose because I see how they relate across the board for different stroke techniques. However, as an example, if I am using a particular swinging procedure and I want to add-in extra power during delivery I might add-in pelvic thrust. I would describe it differently than what many golfers perceive stack & tilt golfers doing. The untrained eye would say it is the same. I see it as significantly different, because I can perform both to test the application in a real world environment.
I have intimate experience with many applications. Have been on a variety of different analysis systems and quizzed by the scientist and instructors that had been compiling the data and they were amazed at my ability to tell them what was happening without being given the data. I have been trained in awareness techniques since I was nine years old and being able to perform with heightened awareness is what makes the difference between the highest levels of performances. My understanding of what is possible scientifically in both theoretical and applied applications have not always been able to describe what I know I can do. However because I understand how TGM patterns operate as well as many others I can be certain that many techniques I have performed both successfully and consistently have never been accurately identified and categorized by the scientific community nor TGM.
cont'd
I understand that you choose to accept definitions more strictly within TGM terms with some of your own variations based on your opinions. However, if we accept any of a variety of different approaches (that are reasonable and valid) and examine their processes logically we can begin to explain what is happening outside of the TGM framework. And so it will not be misrepresented, I am in no way trying to discredit TGM. In fact my approach over the last 25 years has been to advance it. When I started that approach I had already been studying TGM for 7 years, had worked with Ben Doyle and a variety of other TGM instructors in the Northern California area. Though there are some flaws in the book, as most golfers that are well versed in the book know. I believe that most of it is sound and even scientifically based. However, I see it as a good place to start instead of the authority on all possible options, and in many ways I find using its’ terms (as defined) as being limiting .
ReplyDeleteAnd as I have stated in the past, both hitting and throwing involve pushing forces, so simply stating that pushing is enough to define an action as a hitting procedure is incomplete, even false. True that hitting involves pushes and false in that not all pushing is hitting. As a matter of fact I can even push in life without it being either a hit or throw. By studying all sports and understanding how all hitting and throwing actions are performed we can discover the difference between the actions that cause a throwing push as compared to a hitting push. Now I know you will most likely disagree with that, and that is fine with me. We can agree to disagree. However I will continue to look for the answers and I will always describe the actions/techniques in terms of what causes the force and motion. Cause always comes before effect. So, how the forces act on the club (more specifically the handle as you have described) is an effect instead of a cause. The body moved in a specific geometric pattern will producing, multiplying, gathering and delivering energy and the application of that energy can be observed as a resultant force. Simply put, the action produced the force. And in my view the action is the stroke technique.
Additionally I believe a more in-depth study of the energy process that occurs within each stroke will give us a greater understanding of what is efficient as well as readily manageable.
I also know that every day great athletes are doing what was previously thought impossible and then science minded people go about describing what they are doing, how they now believe more people with do it in the future, and why the original thoughts were wrong. Typically something is done before it is completely understood. We are continually pushing the envelope of what is possible. And that is where I live my life and prefer to study. I don’t need to know everything and will never claim to know everything. The process doesn’t need to be understood completely, and it is probable that no one will ever know everything because we will keep pushing the envelope and that means there will always be more to learn.
cont'd
Because of the decades of awareness training I have had, I know we are all capable of performing much more complex procedures than we give ourselves credit for. I was a fanatical archer at one point and I trained splitting arrows every day. The fact is I never did it consciously. I allowed my focus and awareness to direct the process. That is the process of the Zen Archer aiming at himself instead of the target. He aims to master he breathing, presence, awareness and trust in the natural process instead of trying to think his way through the process in order to control it. Golf is the same. If you are aware enough you can add-in during points in the stroke that you consider problematic. And though it would not be advised for the average golfer that lacks the awareness, the problem is more in the lack of awareness than it is the technique. So, as part of understanding what is optimal for any given golfer I would assess whether his or her level of awareness would allow the considered technique to be performed readily.
ReplyDeleteLastly, you said that the pattern I described as the pivot creating a rotational pull into the point of delivery and than a push action taking over and delivering the action was the basis for what you call swing-hitting (that is what I call a type of pivot driven hitting procedure). And I agree with your TGM description of that action. However it is also the basis for a pivot driven throwing action. It is precisely what throwers do in other sports. Yesterday I posted a video on youtube with me demonstrating a basic swinging procedure, a basic throwing procedure, a basic hitting procedure (right arm controlled) and a basic pivot driven hitting procedure. There are clear difference to me between the pivot driven throwing action and the both hitting procedures. I could have also demonstrated arms controlled swinging and throwing procedures as well, however I was interrupted in my session on the range and simply forgot to add them in since my first golf was to show the body controlled versions first.
http://youtu.be/TddproXTf24
EA Tischler
EA,
ReplyDeleteI have a terrible reputation for producing lengthy posts, but I cannot compete with your capacity to generate voluminous posts.
I have questions regarding your swing video.
When I look at your swinging action, it looks like a traditional TGM swinging action using a roll-release action through impact. If I am correct, then you are releasing PA#4 with your pivot action, and then PA#2 is released via a CF-release action (according to the principle of the double pendulum swing model) with no significant drive-loading forces existent at impact.
Now, consider your throwing action. How are you releasing PA#4? Is it powered differently than your swinging action? How about the release of PA#2 - is it a CF-release action, or are you adding a drive-loading force in the later downswing due to an active release of PA#1? What is your right arm actually doing during your throw action with respect to the i) timing of release of PA#4 and speed of release of PA#4 during the downswing; ii) timing of the release of PA#2; and iii) the CF-release action causing the club to release?
Regarding your hitting action -you seem to be employing a takeaway swivel action in the backswing and rotating your LAFW onto the inclined plane. I also note that you are using a drive-hold release action through impact. I therefore surmise that you are actively releasing PA#1 when your hands reach the delivery position and that you are over-riding any CF-release action that occurs in the later downswing, and that you are drive-loading the shaft through impact. Am I correct/incorrect? How are you releasing PA#4?
Regarding your power hitting procedure, what are you doing differently in terms of the release of PA#4 and PA#2 - compared to your standard hitting procedure?
Jeff.