Here's a gem bought to us by our friend Bradley Hughes. It's a 15 year old Jack Nicklaus. Remember Young Jack was being taught by Jack Grout, who in addition to being a world class tour player was an Assistant Pro under Ted Longworth at Glen Garden Country Club. Both Byron Nelson and Ben Hogan were caddies at Glen Garden. Given that Grout was an Assistant, it might be safe to assume that he played a part in both Ben and Byron's development.
Here's an excerpt from Jame's Dodson's "Ben Hogan An American Life"
" Nothing about Hogan's golf swing initially made an impression on Byron, or on anybody else around Glen garden, but the saga of Hogan's battle to get down the basics of a grip and swing remains one of the most beguiling mysteries to emerge from this time. Hogan claimed he was naturally a lefty--probably true--but in those days left-handed clubs were rare to nonexistent. The story goes that Ted Longworth was the first to place a right-handed club in Ben's oversized hands and correct his "hog-killer" grip. Hogan himself cites brother Royal Hogan (who took up golf about this same time) as the one who actually switched Ben from left-to right handed playing, assuring him no athlete was ever successful playing left handed. "I was a southpaw who never stopped playing baseball right handed until my brother, Royal, made me switch," he told reporters following his breakthrough win at Pinehurst in 1940. "My brother would slap me every time he saw me use that right." Still others maintain it was Longworth's newly arrived assistant Jack Grout (who much further down the fairway would shape the swing of a promising Ohio youngster named Jack Nicklaus) who realized the game would be a lot easier for him if Bennie Hogan played it from the right side.
Whoever finally got Hogan squared away, the early switch in part explains the incredible power he was always able to generate from his left side, including his tendency to hook the ball. Years later, Hogan ruefully joked that he wished he'd been born "with two left hands," reflecting the commonplace view that a dominant left hand was an asset to the right handed golf swing."
--It's interesting that the debates below seem to revolve around Hogan wishing he had 3 right hands, when there was also a time when he wished he had 2 left hands. I think it's important to properly research the subject matter before jumping to conclusions.
Back to Nicklaus:
This swing is the epitome of unrestricted, free flowing motion and a very powerful leg action.This is one of the reasons why he is among the longest hitters in history.
This next video is a testament to Nicklaus' power.
The circumstances were as follows:
Nicklaus needed a birdie on the 18th hole to tie the U.S. Open scoring record held by Hogan, but he had 238 yards for his third shot -- uphill, all carry, into the wind. He hammered his 1-iron to about 20 feet and made the putt to finish at 272.
Here's Nicklaus:
Here's Hogan
Hit em Straight
Thursday, November 10, 2011
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That's an interesting point you made about Hogan and the right hands. As a lefty who plays golf right-handed, I can certainly understand his sentiments. It's one of the reasons I'm opposed to the notion of TGM pure swinging. The right hand is the power hand and it took a lot of work for me to train my right arm for max participation. But once I did the results were immensely better, both for power and accuracy. You have to use both arms equally IMO. Just pulling with the left is nowhere near good enough. But if Hogan was in fact left-handed then it makes sense to me that he would have put a lot of emphasis on the role of the right hand.
ReplyDeleteHi Nate,
ReplyDeleteI agree with you to a certain extent, I'm finding that if I treat it all as one unit as Sean Clements calls it, "The arm/club unit" it works better for me. I still believe that the right arm participation needs to be understood in order to provide boaster power as opposed to using it in a support capacity.
I don't think there are many people who are pure swingers or hitters, I believe most people fall somewhere in between.
Ralph
Haha I got sidetracked into a mini-rant there. I think its possible that when Hogan states that he wished he had two left hands that he may have meant that he wished that both his left and right hands were equally strong and coordinated.
ReplyDeleteIt would be interesting if someone could quantify how much each component contributes (ie right arm/hand, left arm hand, shoulders, legs etc.).
ReplyDeleteRalph
I have an old acquaintance who played against Jack when young. This guys thought he was long and said at the Natl Jaycee tournament he saw Nicklaus hit out over the trees at the corner of a hole and figured that is where to go so he went that way, only came up 20 yards short of the trees! That free flowing swing with awesome footwork and "ground forces" sure did work.
ReplyDeleteRalph,
ReplyDeleteThis is a great video. And I like all the commemits above. I believe that most people do use both hands to some degree, even if one is for active support. I also believe Hogan truly did use a two-handed delivery. I also believe he was ambidextrous. Also, when working with the left handed golfers playing left handed golf they all have benefited from training the right arm and hand to be more active. Like Hogan did and like Nate did. I have found that many extremely dominant right handed golfers, playing right handed golf, do much better with a passive left hand contribution as compared to an active one. However, that can be because they will never put the time in to train the left hand adequately. However, I have also worked with extremely dominant right handed golfers that have tried tirelessly to train the left hand to no avail as well.
There are studies that seem to conclude that the sports we learn early in life have strong influence on ever sport we play later in our lives. Some even say the first sport you learn has the greatest influence on all the others we play. The point is, our earliest influences have a continued relevance as we learn new sports in life (as far as those sports are concerned). And if you were truly dominantly right handed in your early sports experiences it is likely those influences will continue to be of the greatest value in the sports you play later in your life.
I believe we can change those influences, or break the pattern by learning to open new neurological pathways, however doing so can be quite time consuming. Much more time consuming than most golfers will want to be involved with.
It is also clear to me that Hogan's deliver was two-handed and his type of delivery needed a very strong left hand and forearm and that could be why he said he wish he had 2 left hands. And since he worked tirelessly on the right side delivery that he believed could not over power his supination move that is why he said he wished he had 3 right hands.
EA
I also wanted to comment that people often pick Hogan quotes and use them out of context. We really need to know what he was referencing and what he was experiencing when the thought came to him. The quotes had context with regard to his present experiences at the time, or with regard to experiences he we remembering in relations to the thoughts he was expressing.
ReplyDeleteIn the end I believe the 2 left hands and 3 right hands comments have to do with the necessity for strong arms and forearms in the Hogan delivery action, and more strength (or more hands the way he said it) would be a definite benefit.
EA
It is also clear to me that Hogan's deliver was two-handed and his type of delivery needed a very strong left hand and forearm and that could be why he said he wish he had 2 left hands. And since he worked tirelessly on the right side delivery that he believed could not over power his supination move that is why he said he wished he had 3 right hands.
ReplyDeleteInteresting viewpoint EA
Ralph
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteRalph,
ReplyDeleteYou wrote-: "I still believe that the right arm participation needs to be understood in order to provide boaster power as opposed to using it in a support capacity."
What's the difference? What is the right arm doing differently when it applies "booster power" - if it doesn't cause PA#4 to release faster (cause the left hand to move faster), or cause PA#2 to release faster, or cause PA#3 to roll faster?
EA wrote-: "And since he worked tirelessly on the right side delivery that he believed could not over power his supination move that is why he said he wished he had 3 right hands."
What does it mean to work tirelessly on the right side delivery? What is the right arm/hand doing differently (in a right side delivery) and how it would it be better if he had three right hands? How could that "extra" right-sided power be beneficial?
EA has claimed that hitting harder with the right arm/hand will make the ball go straighter. Do you believe that assertion? If yes- please explain how it works from a mechanical/biomechanical perspective.
Jeff.
Jeff, Hogan swung the golf club 100 times a day every day with the club in his right hand only. He did so for a reason. He also said he hitt as hard as he could with both hands. Which means he hit as hard as he could with his right hand. I believe that his dedication to those two takes were worked on tirelessly day in and day out as an active part of his delivery action.
ReplyDeleteEA
Jeff wrote, "EA has claimed that hitting harder with the right arm/hand will make the ball go straighter."
ReplyDeleteHere is the statment I made that started the whole discussion:
"BR,
I do believe that Ben Hogan found a way to supinate in such a way that he could hit it hard with both hands and as hard as he wants with the right hand. I have found and been using a similar action for over 20 years. I began to describe that process in the Hogan supination video I already posted and that Ralph posted. However you have to add in a couple of more details to be able to hit it as hard as you can with the right hand. Now, I don't necessarily mean a hitting action with right arm extensor action. I am using the term generically, more like Hogan did. And I am using the term supination in the way I believe Hogan intended. I demonstrate this action all the time and I can even intend to close the clubface down as much as possible through the ball with this action and the ball flight NEVER hooks. I can show you in person some time. This is one of those instances where people can theorize all day long how Hogan did it, however if you are unable to do it you wll not truly understand what Hogan meant by his words.
EA Tischler"
So there you go! I believe I am quite clear in what I meant.
EA
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteRalph,
ReplyDeleteYou wrote-: "I still believe that the right arm participation needs to be understood in order to provide boaster power as opposed to using it in a support capacity."
What's the difference? What is the right arm doing differently when it applies "booster power" - if it doesn't cause PA#4 to release faster (cause the left hand to move faster), or cause PA#2 to release faster, or cause PA#3 to roll faster?
You've obviously limited your understanding of the golf swing to TGM.I will post a video above
Ralph
Ralph,
ReplyDeleteHave you posted the video?
Are you stating that your non-TGM explanation is actually that Gravity Golf video where he claims that Hogan used an active right arm/hand slapping action to make up for the fact that Hogan had a shorter backswing action than Nicklaus? If yes- then where is the "evidence" that Hogan had an inefficient release of PA#4 as a result of a shorter backswing and that he had to use a slap-release of the right arm/hand to propel the grip end of the club sufficiently fast through the impact zone?
Jeff.
EA,
ReplyDeleteYou wrote-: "Jeff, Hogan swung the golf club 100 times a day every day with the club in his right hand only. He did so for a reason. He also said he hit as hard as he could with both hands. Which means he hit as hard as he could with his right hand."
I have no problem with any assertion that Hogan hit hard with the right hand. I only ask what that means in terms of the speed of motion of the grip end of the club through the impact zone. I believe that Hogan led with his left hand (which was propelled through the impact zone via a pivot-induced release of PA#4) and that he didn't increase the speed of motion of his left hand through the impact zone when he simultaneously hit hard with his right hand. So, what could he do that would be beneficial if he hit even harder with his right hand (by using three right hands)?
Jeff.
Ralph,
ReplyDeleteHave you posted the video?
Are you stating that your non-TGM explanation is actually that Gravity Golf video where he claims that Hogan used an active right arm/hand slapping action to make up for the fact that Hogan had a shorter backswing action than Nicklaus? If yes- then where is the "evidence" that Hogan had an inefficient release of PA#4 as a result of a shorter backswing and that he had to use a slap-release of the right arm/hand to propel the grip end of the club sufficiently fast through the impact zone?
Jeff.
Where do you think the whole premise of swinging left originated??? Ben Hogan, he pivoted left and kept #4 in tact. If you watch my SLicefixer material or if you watch Gregg addressing the PGA Teaching Summit in 1990 you'll see the evidence. Look it up,I am not going to post it.
Ralph
Ralph,
ReplyDeleteIf you believe that Hogan kept PA#4 intact then you have a totally different way of measuring the degree of release (unloading of PA#4). I define PA#4 unloading as happening when the distance between the hands and right shoulder starts to increase in the early downswing, and the speed of release is defined by the degree of movement of the hands away from the right shoulder per unit time.
When looking at these capture images of Hogan's swing, one can readily see that Hogan is releasing PA#4 throughout his downswing.
http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/BenHogan-DownswingSeries.jpg
One can see Hogan start to release PA#4 in image 3, and it continues non-stop through image 7. The motion of the left arm during the release of PA#4 is mainly downwards-forwards, and not outwards. I think that there is very little separation of the left arm from the chest wall in an outwards direction in Hogan's downswing, and many golfers therefore think that Hogan didn't release PA#4. I think that it is totally irrational/irrelevant to measure the degree of release of PA#4 by examining the motion of the left arm in an outward direction (away from the chest wall) - rather than a downward-forward direction.
I think that the concept of "swinging left" has nothing to do with release of PA#4. However, I think that an understanding of the difference between a CP-release versus a CF-release is significantly influenced by the degree of separation of the left arm from its close anatomical approximation to the upper left anterior chest wall in the downswing/followthrough.
Jeff.
I think that it is totally irrational/irrelevant to measure the degree of release of PA#4 by examining the motion of the left arm in an outward direction (away from the chest wall) - rather than a downward-forward direction.
ReplyDeleteThe number 4 accumulator is the angle formed by the chest and the left arm (for right handers) in your opinion that angle is increasing while the arm is moving in a vertical fashion. I disagree. I view the #4 accumulator's power contribution as the arm blasting off the chest as it is driven by the pivot. It's contribution has been describe as minimal.It basically throws the lever assembly into the ball. I can't see how this is accomplished if the arm is sliding along the chest in a vertical fashion. I've also heard it described as the Flywheel effect. Keeping it in tact would signify the angle increasing minimally.
In your photographs I would qualify Hogan as having #4 in tact. In this video Chuck Evans is doing what I consider a release of #4
Ralph
Ralph
And if Hogan is using #4, what exactly is it contributing??
ReplyDeleteRalph
BTW this just in from one of our readers:
ReplyDeleteRalph- In April of 1985, I had the great pleasure of having dinner with Mr. Hogan at Shady Oaks CC in Ft. Worth. At that time, I was a Hogan staff member, and doing quite a lot of business with the Hogan company as a club pro in the Pittsburgh area. Two things I remember from that night...1) Mr. Hogan cut his steak with his right hand, and 2) he held his cigarette in his right hand when smoking. Throughout the entire evening, one never got the impression that Mr. Hogan was anything but right handed. I have heard many people say that he was a lefty, and couldn't find clubs as a kid that were left handed, etc. but I just don't buy it. I read somewhere that the first club he owned was left handed because that was the only one he could afford at the time. Anyway, he sure acted and moved like a righty that night at Shady Oaks. -Dave
Chuck Evans Video I mentioned above (I forgot the link)
ReplyDeleteRalph
Very interesting.....I thought I saw a photo of Hogan once signing a scorecard right handed, but you can never really be sure that the image hadnt been flipped, as magazine editors or whoever sometimes do. I smoked for years, and always held it in my right hand (Im left handed), but I wouldnt use a knife right handed. Doesnt Hogan also claim to be left handed in 5 lessons, but then claim it was just a myth in one of the Golf Digest interviews? I guess we'll never know....
ReplyDeleteHi Nate,
ReplyDeleteYeah, there seems to be a lot of confusion about that.
Ralph
Ralph,
ReplyDeleteYou are free to consider the speed of left arm motion in the downswing according to the degree of outward motion of the left arm (away from the chest wall). I think that it an useless idea because in many professional golfers there is virtually no outward movement of the left arm away from the surface of the pivoting upper torso during the downswing. However, there is considerable energy required to make the left arm move downwards-and-forwards in the direction of impact in order to generate swing power (like an Iron Byron machine which also doesn't have outward motion of the central arm). If you exclude PA#4 as supplying that energy (force) because it is not in your outward-plane-of-motion, then you are implying that HK didn't discuss the swing power forces that move the left arm in the downswing (because virtually all the left arm motion is downwards-and-forwards and not outwards).
Jeff.
Addendum to my previous post.
ReplyDeleteHere is an image showing Aaron Baddeley's hand arc path.
http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/BaddsHandArc.jpg
The DTL view shows that the downswing hand arc path is nearly vertical (and only somewhat outward relative to the upper torso) and there is very little outward motion of the left arm/hand away from the body during the downswing. Therefore, to measure the swing power forces needed to propel the left arm/hand along that path, then one must perform one's measurements according to the axis of that plane. That is what I think golf researchers do when measuring left arm/hand speed in a golf research laboratory.
Jeff.
Ralph,
ReplyDeleteWith regard to Hogan being born right handed or left handed, there are numerous counts of Hogan himself saying he was born left handed and I have talked to a variety of reporters/writers that verified he said told them so. Additionally when Hogan was growing up most left handed people were forced or sternly encouraged to do everything right handed (as I mentioned in the past my grandmother was, including right handed writing. As a matter of fact her left hand was hit with a ruler if she attempted to write with your left hand). Additionally if you look at the book The Hogan Mystique there are 3 pictures of him smoking. Two were left handed and one right handed. As I have also mentioned in the past, I believe Hogan was ambidextrous, and that is why he was able to adapt so well to the right handed conrolled actions. He also believed the right arm/hand participation was so important that he isolated its training every day. And it is easy to conceive how he would strive to do everything right handed to enhance his right handed abilities. Lastly, being ambidextrous I cut with my left and eat with my right all the time. I also do many things better left handed than right handed, such as shooting pool. If you watch me shoot pool you would think I was left handed. I also wear my watch on my right wrist. Thus there are a variety of reasons that people often think I am left handed even though I am ambidestrous and more right handed than left handed. I believe we need to take Hogan's word on this and there are many more reports of him saying he was born left handed.
EA Tischler
Hi EA,
ReplyDeleteI believe Curt Sampson was the one who brought the whole thing into question and provided some circumstantial evidence in his book "Hogan". I'm not quite sure so don't quote me.
Cheers,
Ralph
Thanks Ralph, I will double check that as well. I know John Steinbreder researched the topic and double check with a some writers that interviewed Hogan because he wanted to make sure that what I stated in Secrets Of Owning Your Swing was accurate. Since he was writing the book with me he wanted to make sure the facts were accurate.
ReplyDeleteEA
I have photos of Hogan (correct way around) signing autographs and also fixing his wood in a vice
ReplyDelete100% right handed
Some how people keep missing the fact that most left handed people were forced to learn how to write right handed back in the day. Just like my Grandmother, once again. And she did many things right handed because she was forced to do so. Additionally, being ambidextrous I do many things left handed, as well as using wrenching, knives, and club work. None of those observations are proof of anything in relations to whether he was born left handed or not. Many times people ask me if I am left handed because of my actions, even though I am naturally more right handed than left handed.
ReplyDeleteEA